The stories we dance through with Chris Rodgers-Wilson

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Hi there, and welcome to People Soup.

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Real conversations about work, leadership, and being human, grounded

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in behavioral science with practical ideas you can actually use I'm Ross

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McIntosh, and in this episode, I'm talking to Chris Rodgers Wilson.

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Chris spent much of his working life as a professional ballet dancer,

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performing with companies including the Birmingham Royal Ballet and the

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Australian Ballet These days, he brings together psychology and coaching alongside

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supporting dancers as they navigate their career and life beyond the stage.

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But this isn't simply a conversation about changing careers It's about

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the stories we tell ourselves, the pressure to perform, what happens

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when life changes us, and how we begin to imagine who we might become next.

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Chris shares some very personal reflections on ambition, perfectionism,

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and the loss of his mum, as well as the relationships that helped

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him through difficult times.

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And there's a lovely thread running through our conversation that

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takes us from a young boy watching Romeo and Juliet to a moment on

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stage that helped him recognize he might be ready for something new

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before we head to the episode, I want to scoot over to the news desk to

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tell you about a special discount.

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I'm delighted to be presenting an Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program

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That's the word WORK in capitals, followed by the figure two

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organizations, this course will equip you to work with groups, understand the stance

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of the ACT facilitator, and help make a difference to wellbeing in the workplace

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You'll find the link in the show notes.

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And remember, the 20% discount is on top of the early bird rate, which ends on

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the 5th of November and now after that excitement, why not get a brew on and have

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a listen to my chat with Chris Rodgers Wilson, where I start by asking him about

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the origin story of his career in dance

Chris: 00:02:17

Yeah.

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So why dance?

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I guess, I mean, it was not really a conscious choice in a sense.

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Like I think a lot of professional dancers, I started dancing around the

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lounge room at home and mom and dad sort of caught wind of it and, my mom

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actually was a bit of a ballet fan.

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She'd taken dad on a few dates to the ballet, and she had a recording

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of the Royal Ballet doing Romeo and Juliet, at the Royal Opera House,

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Margot Fonteyn and Rudolf Nureyev.

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And I do sort of remember watching that as a, five-year-old I think.

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yeah, and I was just totally transported.

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I was, I was obsessed and loved I guess the dancing, but also

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the storytelling, the music.

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it was just all so intoxicating yeah, and I think from there, mom

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had the bright idea to take me down to the local ballet school.

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And yeah, I was kind of hooked from day one I think.

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I was… I wasn't interested in the sort of ballet class part of it at first, but

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I think just as soon as I had a big space to leap around in, I felt right at home.

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Oh, Chris, I love that.

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A big space to leap around in

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I love it that your mum identified this in you and gave you the

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possibility of going to classes

Chris: 00:03:33

Yeah, absolutely.

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I wouldn't have registered it at the time, but I'm obviously very grateful

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and, um, I mean, she was a doctor.

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She was in a totally different, world, but, I think would've made a really

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beautiful artist in a lot of ways.

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She did, sort of show a lot of interest in, in the arts and, So I'm, I'm very

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lucky that she, she had that inspired thought to send me there, and then

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it, it kinda took off from there.

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I, I danced up until sort of about 14 and then I moved to a new high

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school, where there was all manner of extracurricular activities on offer, and

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I think that sort of coincided with me reaching my teens and sort of bristling

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against the discipline of the ballet studio and getting a bit impatient

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with my ballet teachers, although I'm sure I was being more of a nightmare.

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And yeah, so I, I decided to take a break.

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So I actually stopped dancing for two years.

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must have been about 13, I think, when I stopped.

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And yeah, and just did everything on offer at school.

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Did sport, music.

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So I tried a bunch of things.

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but I guess as things like this do, I sort of had a calling back to dance, , so

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I had, I had the break for two years.

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Um, didn't see a show that whole time, didn't do a class, and then my mom

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encouraged me to come with her and dad to see the new production of Swan Lake that

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the Australian Ballet was performing.

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And, I sort of went along begrudgingly trying to be too cool for school,

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and then I just remember being in the car on the way home, and I don't

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think I would've said anything, but I just remember like silently

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crying all the way home in the car.

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'Cause I just missed it.

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I just missed that feeling.

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I think I just had this, uh, real urge to get back into it.

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So, That prompted me to go back and, and sort of start, start afresh.

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Oh, Chris, that's so evocative this… can of picture mini Chris going,

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"All right," sort of truculent teenager.

Chris: 00:05:31

That's it

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I'm almost doing you a favor, mom and dad, coming with you.

Chris: 00:05:36

Yeah.

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Oh my gosh So, you reconnected and you went back to class

Chris: 00:05:42

Yeah, reconnected and yeah, and from there things kind

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of snowballed quite quickly.

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I had, I had my work cut out for me and my teachers were very clear

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with me that I needed to really pull out all the stops if I wanted to,

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to try and make it, professionally.

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And I don't think I really had really thought about being a

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professional dancer, but I did know that I just wanted to do it.

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So I really, I locked down and worked really hard and then at 16, they started

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talking to me about auditioning for ballet schools, and then the following

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year they encouraged me to audition via VHS, which seems crazy now, for

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the Royal Ballet School in London.

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And yeah, and I said yes.

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We had, we, we made a tape, it got sent away, and then I found out, like, I

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guess much to the surprise of myself and my parents, that I had gotten the spot.

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and that was an opportunity I could not refuse.

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and so I, I packed up, um, sort of nearly towards the end of

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my last year at high school.

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I packed up my life and moved to London, at 17.

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So yeah, it was, it was a huge change from there.

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But then my, I guess the dance world really opened up for me from that point.

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It was like a, a major, major turning point.

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And thinking about when you reconnected with ballet at school, what

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did that mean in terms of giving up stuff?

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I mean, there was definitely some sacrifices.

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I think being a young boy I was really conscious about the perceptions

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of me being a ballet dancer and how that would fly at school.

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So I actually didn't tell a lot of people.

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I think my close friends knew, but I didn't, I kept it fairly well under wraps.

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And yeah, and I, and I did miss out on, a lot of fun on the weekends

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'cause I would be at ballet all day on Saturday, and I'd go after school.

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I mean, very common for any young ballet dancer.

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I think you, you do, give up a lot of your sort of childhood freedoms

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in other ways to, to do ballet class.

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But the rewards are, are high in dancing and yeah, so I think

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it sort of made up for it.

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But I did notice when I left to move to London, all my friends were leaving

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high school and going to university and having a mighty time and, and I

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was locking in for probably two of the hardest physical years of my life.

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So we were on a, we were on different wavelengths, which, which, at times

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was quite challenging for sure.

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Do you still have the VHS?

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I was actually thinking about it, before we, we logged on today.

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I'm sure it's somewhere, in a dusty old box.

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I should try and find it

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And that's quite a big move going round the other side

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of the world when you're 17.

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Blimey

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Yeah, it was a big shift.

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I mean, going from a couple hours of ballet at night after high school to then

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doing full days, I mean, after my first term, I think I, I flew home to Australia

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for Christmas, and I actually slept the whole way, I think, on the flight.

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I was exhausted.

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it had been a big first term as well because I finished my high school exams,

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in London, whilst I was at school, and I was, performing as an extra

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with the Royal Ballet at the time too.

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So it was really… It was all happening.

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I mean, it was just so wonderful to, to be at the school, to be surrounded

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by all of these other young, incredibly talented, hardworking dancers and,

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and a lot of other young boys as well.

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I, I was, as a lot of stories go, y- I was the only boy in my class

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at my ballet school for a time.

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So yeah, just being surrounded by all these great people and

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the proximity to the Royal Opera House, getting to see these, global

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superstar, ballet dancers, at night after school was just so inspiring.

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Yeah, I don't have the words.

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It was just… It had such an impression on me.

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so your, your first experience of dancing with a company, was

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that your role or roles as an extra with the, the Royal Ballet?

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Yeah, I mean, I don't know if we'd call it dancing.

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There was-- It was mostly, um, standing in a nice outfit

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and maybe holding a door open.

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But I mean, I was on the Royal Opera House stage, so I was just happy to be there.

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And how did it feel to be on that stage?

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Oh, it was, totally, totally surreal.

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I think, yeah, was so transported by the performances that were happening in front

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of me, and then also kind of fascinated seeing these professional dancers in their

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natural habitat and like, you know, you're sort of privy to the, the sneaky whispers

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backstage and little conversations that are happening and, and seeing people,

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you know, seeing people having fun, seeing people struggling through things.

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all the sort of fun stuff backstage that you don't get as much, um, of a sense

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of when you're sat in the audience.

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It was just, it was amazing to see that happening right in front of me

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So, so what happened once you'd graduated from

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the, the Royal Ballet School?

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yeah, so in your graduate year, at these kind of professional ballet schools,

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the pressure is on to, to find a job.

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So we'd been, looking at auditioning.

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We'd had a lot of directors coming in, and one of the privileges of being

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somewhere like the Royal Ballet School is you have directors come in from

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Europe to, to see the graduate class.

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and fortunately for me and, and three other of my classmates, we got a job

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relatively early in that graduate year with the Birmingham Royal Ballet.

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so I was really excited to get that.

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and come graduation time, I had my summer break, and then I moved up to

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Birmingham to join the company and start my life as a, as a company dancer.

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Chris, I don't know if this is possible, but is there a point when you

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started to think of yourself as a dancer?

Chris: 00:10:57

Yeah, it's a great question, with a difficult answer.

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I think in some ways from when I started, I felt like a dancer unconsciously,

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just, being a body in space.

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And then in other ways, I think because you have such high ambitions of the

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things you want to achieve and, how you want to be, intermittently I'd sort of

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not feel like I was ever gonna feel like I was the dancer that I wanted to be.

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I think that's kind of a classic tension that is probably, um,

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pretty common in high performance.

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Thank you.

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Very interesting.

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I've had the privilege of having a glimpse behind the scenes of some ballet

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companies in my work with, Jamie Tapper, where we've worked with several companies,

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including the Birmingham Royal Ballet.

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But I'm curious from your perspective, tell me more about the context of

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being in a ballet company including the shift of gear from being at a

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school to being in a company, finding where you fit in another new city.

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me a bit about all of that.

Chris: 00:11:58

Yeah.

Chris: 00:11:59

Well, I guess in terms of the ballet context, you know, you shift from a

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school where we were in a class of about 25, I think from memory, to a company

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of about, you know, maybe nearly 100 depending on the, how big the company is.

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So it's a big shift in the amount of people that you're dancing with every day.

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it's kinda like jumping onto a moving train as well because the way that seasons

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run in a, in a performing ballet company, there's not very many times throughout

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the year where things are quiet.

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It, they're pretty much always rehearsing or rehearsing and performing.

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so it was a real shift of gear, to use your words.

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And I guess you're adapting to a different schedule.

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you're learning so much new material all the time, in terms of choreography.

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I guess you also shift from at school you're getting a lot of feedback, from

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your teachers around how you're going and how to improve your technique,

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and artistry and also, yeah, you're just getting a lot of feedback really

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and then you join a company and you're receiving a lot of direction

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from the front of the room, but not necessarily individual feedback.

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So I think that's can be really challenging, It's a big shift to change

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from that feedback loop that's quite personal and then you being in part

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of a bigger company and especially when you're in the corps de ballet and

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you're in the group more, the, it's less likely you're gonna get individual

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feedback, just by nature of the work.

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So that, that was definitely a challenge to, to navigate,

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And did you experience it as a, as a pressurized environment?

Chris: 00:13:33

Yeah, for sure.

Chris: 00:13:34

I think it's-- I mean, there are real, there's real pressures of the, the

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schedule and the performances, and then there's also the sort of self-driven

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pressures as well of wanting to, wanting to succeed, wanting t-to work towards

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getting opportunities where you might get to do more featured work, roles

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that you've sort of dreamed of doing.

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So yeah, there, there's a lot of pressure, and I think I remember joining and it

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was an easy trap to fall into of that comparison with your colleagues that

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you joined with because you'd been in class with them for so long at school.

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And then inevitably, like one of the group would get an opportunity here or

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there, and It'd be hard not to measure yourself against that when I guess what

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I learnt quite quickly is that no matter what rank you are, that is an experience

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that everyone has, where something, a role will come along that you'd like to do and

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you don't get it, and there's a lot of factors at play there, and you have to,

Chris: 00:14:29

hang on to your sense of self and, and keep going and not let that get you down.

Ross: 00:14:33

It sounds pretty relentless.

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You described it as leaping on a moving train, and then perhaps

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you're discovering you got a part, you didn't get a part, and it's just

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kind of keeping going, keeping going.

Ross: 00:14:47

I don't know if you can look back and think, did you build in recovery

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time or was there encouragement to take breaks and recover?

Chris: 00:14:57

Yeah, I mean, I think I didn't have a reference point then, and, and I

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think I look back and think how adaptable, you know, dancers are in that sense.

Chris: 00:15:04

It's a lot of pressure, to deal with.

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And it's also, you know, it's hard to evaluate yourself and take on

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other people's evaluations of you in a work and performance context

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when the art form is so subjective.

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So you could hear very differing opinions about what you're doing,

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both from other people and then also inside yourself, depending on

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whether it's a good day or a bad day.

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and I think definitely early on in my career, I didn't pay

Chris: 00:15:32

much attention to recovery.

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It's probably a blessing of youth.

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You just keep, you you have this sort of unending, amount of energy for it.

Chris: 00:15:41

but yeah, the schedule, the schedule doesn't allow heaps of time.

Chris: 00:15:44

I think it's definitely, the culture has definitely improved, since I was starting

Chris: 00:15:48

out now in terms of building in that recovery time, 'cause it is so crucial.

Ross: 00:15:52

Is it possible to say where the dancer ended and you began in that

Ross: 00:15:57

time at the Birmingham Royal Ballet?

Chris: 00:16:00

Yeah, it's a great question.

Chris: 00:16:01

I mean, I think at that time early on in my career It was

Chris: 00:16:05

very dance focused for me.

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I was really living and breathing work.

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we were touring all the time, performing all the time.

Chris: 00:16:11

I have made some wonderful friends in that experience, and it was quite a

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unique, little ecosystem that we had.

Chris: 00:16:19

But I think what I noticed and why I ended up moving to Australia was it shifted for

Chris: 00:16:23

me in my last year that I spent at BRB.

Chris: 00:16:28

I was getting great opportunities, but I noticed that I was

Chris: 00:16:31

just feeling a bit flat.

Chris: 00:16:33

and I wanted to be enjoying them more and living them more, and I just wasn't.

Chris: 00:16:36

And I, I realized that, there was this gap where I was, my life

Chris: 00:16:41

was just work and dance yeah.

Chris: 00:16:43

And I missed, I missed my family.

Chris: 00:16:45

I missed having some time to get away from it.

Chris: 00:16:49

So it sort of naturally led me to make the decision to move back to Australia to

Chris: 00:16:55

join the Australian Ballet at that time

Ross: 00:16:58

Chris, that feels like quite a transition, that listening

Ross: 00:17:03

to something inside of you and that move back to Australia.

Chris: 00:17:06

Mhm

Ross: 00:17:07

Now, I know there was another major turning point for you, and

Ross: 00:17:11

that was the, the loss of your mum.

Ross: 00:17:13

I wonder if you wouldn't mind talking about that please?

Chris: 00:17:17

Yeah, for sure.

Chris: 00:17:18

so the lead up to that, I'd, I'd been in the Australian Ballet,

Chris: 00:17:21

nearly 10 years, I think, by that point, and had had a great time.

Chris: 00:17:25

It was a wonderful company for me.

Chris: 00:17:28

and yeah, but then, then my mom died very suddenly.

Chris: 00:17:32

It was, uh, very shocking, very traumatic, right at a time in my career

Chris: 00:17:36

when things were really, really busy.

Chris: 00:17:40

I had some great opportunities.

Chris: 00:17:43

So yeah, it was a real, it was a real blindside for me.

Chris: 00:17:47

And as you know, when people describe sort of grief coming in waves,

Chris: 00:17:51

I still think about that often.

Chris: 00:17:53

it is a very apt description of it.

Chris: 00:17:55

And in that acute phase, the waves are just constant, but they're

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invisible to most people around you.

Chris: 00:18:02

I think it was one of the hardest experiences of my life being in a

Chris: 00:18:07

performance environment and just getting knocked constantly by these waves and

Chris: 00:18:12

trying to show up in the way that I wanted to, and that was sort of asked of

Chris: 00:18:15

me to be, you know, strong and reliable and, and a performer through that.

Chris: 00:18:20

It was, it was incredibly, incredibly difficult.

Chris: 00:18:22

And it, it Yeah, there was a seismic shift in my relationship

Chris: 00:18:26

to myself and my relationship to work through that experience

Ross: 00:18:31

Thank you, Chris.

Ross: 00:18:32

And did this coincide with you also starting to think about retirement?

Chris: 00:18:40

Like I was saying earlier about sort of the, the challenge of

Chris: 00:18:42

trying to evaluate yourself and your progress in such a subjective world,

Chris: 00:18:48

that does make the question of like when to wrap up challenging, and I

Chris: 00:18:53

think I had, I had thought about it, probably around that time as well.

Chris: 00:18:57

I mean, as grief does, you feel it in your body.

Chris: 00:19:00

I was in a lot of physical pain intermittently.

Chris: 00:19:02

I was really-- I had a couple of injuries that popped up at that time, predictably.

Chris: 00:19:08

but I did end up dancing for another four years after that, I think.

Chris: 00:19:14

and I think a big part of that, which I, I feel like I should mention, is the people

Chris: 00:19:20

that I was dancing with at the time.

Chris: 00:19:22

I was very lucky to have some really close friendships and close

Chris: 00:19:26

partnerships with the ballerinas that I was dancing with quite regularly.

Chris: 00:19:30

and I do think there's something incredibly powerful in the alchemy of sort

Chris: 00:19:35

of connecting energy with another person, which we had the privilege to do through

Chris: 00:19:40

dancing and in such a sort of tactile way, when you're doing a pas de deux.

Chris: 00:19:44

So I think that was, that was really life-giving for me and, and

Chris: 00:19:49

it would've been really easy for me to tap out, I think, because of

Chris: 00:19:51

how challenging the, the grief was.

Chris: 00:19:53

But I think that really pulled me through it.

Chris: 00:19:56

and so I'm so grateful.

Chris: 00:19:57

I'm so grateful for that,

Chris: 00:19:58

I think looking back

Chris: 00:20:01

I guess why I want to highlight that connection I had with those ballerinas

Chris: 00:20:05

I was working with at the time is that I certainly notice in myself, and I've heard

Chris: 00:20:12

a lot of other people say similar things, where when you're in a lot of pain, it's

Chris: 00:20:17

all too easy to turn away or turn inward and, I guess wanna conceal it in some way.

Chris: 00:20:23

and really, I'm so grateful for the trust that those women that I was working with

Chris: 00:20:29

gave me because I certainly felt there were times when I was at work and I

Chris: 00:20:33

just felt like an absolute shell, and, like, weak and broken and terrible.

Chris: 00:20:39

but they trusted me to do the job, and I'd obviously practiced for a long

Chris: 00:20:43

time, so my body could show up and do it and, um, it was their trust and

Chris: 00:20:47

the connection and that shared energy

Chris: 00:20:50

that really pulled me through that incredibly difficult time.

Ross: 00:20:54

you, Chris.

Ross: 00:20:55

And it's interesting for me as an outsider, to think about those energy

Ross: 00:21:00

flows and also the, the awareness that's in that ballet ecosystem of knowing that

Ross: 00:21:07

someone is perhaps suffering, identifying that, and doing something about it.

Ross: 00:21:11

It feels like something we might miss in our non-ballet organizations, that

Ross: 00:21:17

and that awareness and that preparedness to support others and transmit energy

Chris: 00:21:22

Hmm.

Chris: 00:21:23

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Chris: 00:21:24

I mean, I think those people that I was working with closely really saw me.

Chris: 00:21:28

in that moment, maybe that is quite unique in that we were, you

Chris: 00:21:31

know, dancing through it together.

Chris: 00:21:33

And I guess grief is something that I, I actually feel really happy to talk

Chris: 00:21:38

about because like you sort of alluded to, there's, there's definitely gaps

Chris: 00:21:43

in how we manage it, or live through it in, in a Western world sort of context.

Chris: 00:21:47

There's, I think there's a real fear of talking about it and, it

Chris: 00:21:51

does bring up uncomfortable sort of feelings around mortality, but I think

Chris: 00:21:56

bigger picture, you know, like even the company and the organization,

Chris: 00:22:00

naturally people can't remember every day, and that's, that's fine.

Chris: 00:22:03

Like, it's not a, it's not a realistic expectation to have.

Chris: 00:22:06

But I think talking about grief more often and, and particularly in the

Chris: 00:22:12

context of environments that you're spending a lot of time in, like a

Chris: 00:22:15

workplace, feels really important.

Chris: 00:22:17

especially in a Western world context where there's maybe not the same

Chris: 00:22:22

amount of ritual or, means of, of living through it in a more open

Chris: 00:22:29

and connected and communal way.

Chris: 00:22:31

And I guess, I feel really fortunate to have, even though it was very hard on

Chris: 00:22:36

a lot of days to, to dance through it, and I think there's a lot of research

Chris: 00:22:40

around dancing being such a positive thing for your nervous system and to help

Chris: 00:22:45

regulate, to move through various states of emotional and physical awareness.

Chris: 00:22:51

So yeah, I think it, I was lucky in a way that I could dance through it

Chris: 00:22:56

and that I managed to get through some of those injuries and keep going.

Ross: 00:23:00

And, and what was the point where you thought, "Right, now I'm retiring"?

Chris: 00:23:07

I mean, I probably had that thought on a couple of

Chris: 00:23:09

tough mornings over the years.

Chris: 00:23:12

but I did have a bit of a full circle moment.

Chris: 00:23:15

I mean, going through that experience of losing mom definitely strengthened

Chris: 00:23:19

boundaries for me, around what I needed and, and I think my life had

Chris: 00:23:25

expanded outside of ballet as well.

Chris: 00:23:27

I met my partner and I wanted to be more present with my, my dad, and my family.

Chris: 00:23:34

So there was a few things that were sort of moving me towards that.

Chris: 00:23:37

But I did, in my sort of penultimate year, I had the privilege of

Chris: 00:23:43

dancing Romeo in Romeo and Juliet.

Chris: 00:23:45

and it was really a dream fulfilled moment, having, you know, watched

Chris: 00:23:49

it all those years ago on that VHS.

Chris: 00:23:52

and I remember standing on stage before the first performance, and it's such a

Chris: 00:23:57

beautiful moment I think, in theater when, you know, just before things are about

Chris: 00:24:01

to start and you can hear the orchestra tuning and people are warming up.

Chris: 00:24:05

there's a bit of excited chatter backstage and Romeo starts on stage

Chris: 00:24:09

with your cape and you, you're sort of having a, you have a solo sort of…

Chris: 00:24:12

You have a quiet moment there wh-whilst everyone else is backstage, And I,

Chris: 00:24:16

I remember thinking to myself that I just had this feeling this is probably

Chris: 00:24:18

the last story ballet that I'll do.

Chris: 00:24:21

and it was funny.

Chris: 00:24:21

It, it wasn't like a, it wasn't premeditated, it just came to me.

Chris: 00:24:24

And and I think from that point, I think I just felt like I've done

Chris: 00:24:30

what I wanted to do in this career.

Chris: 00:24:32

Like I've, I've really been so fortunate with the opportunities

Chris: 00:24:36

that I've had and this is a beautiful sort of peak opportunity for me

Chris: 00:24:42

and, and I think I'm actually ready to start thinking about this.

Chris: 00:24:44

So

Chris: 00:24:45

It felt like getting to that point to do Romeo was this, the top

Chris: 00:24:50

of the mountain for me, I think.

Chris: 00:24:52

And it just felt, from there it felt easier to think about

Chris: 00:24:56

the reality of, of moving on.

Chris: 00:25:00

That's not to say there wasn't plenty of rumination in the, you know,

Chris: 00:25:03

in the years leading up to that.

Chris: 00:25:04

I definitely had some, some times where I was really thinking about it, and

Chris: 00:25:09

we had COVID obviously, where we were all, you know, off stage for a year.

Chris: 00:25:13

And that maybe was a bit of a good road test of like living without dance.

Chris: 00:25:16

Um, I think I did come out of that feeling like, oh, I don't feel

Chris: 00:25:19

as maybe sad about not doing it every day as I thought I would.

Chris: 00:25:23

but then inevitably life complicates things and I was about to do my

Chris: 00:25:27

last few performances of that year, had a quite a severe injury.

Chris: 00:25:30

Had to go and get surgery, and then rehab.

Chris: 00:25:33

So I did, I rehabbed and then did a couple more seasons and then I finished.

Chris: 00:25:37

But yeah, it's never, it's never a smooth, smooth road.

Ross: 00:25:42

Hmm.

Ross: 00:25:43

And as you looked to the future from this emerging retirement decision,

Ross: 00:25:49

did you have any idea what was next?

Chris: 00:25:53

Well, I guess that brings me to psychology, 'cause I was studying.

Chris: 00:25:57

I'd been studying for the last few years while I was still

Chris: 00:25:59

performing, via distance.

Chris: 00:26:01

And a couple of things I think brought me to psychology.

Chris: 00:26:05

Probably first was a book that my parents gave me, called "The Road

Chris: 00:26:09

Less Traveled" by M. Scott Peck.

Chris: 00:26:10

I'm sure you've probably read that.

Chris: 00:26:13

Um, still such a great book, But that definitely helped me in my, in my career,

Chris: 00:26:17

I think, in, in building perspective and understanding around, you know, mindset

Chris: 00:26:22

and the psychology of living a good life.

Chris: 00:26:26

but then I was doing an arts degree, principally to tr- to try a bunch of

Chris: 00:26:30

different things to see what I'd be interested in, and I did a psychology

Chris: 00:26:33

elective, and it was very science-heavy.

Chris: 00:26:36

But I actually did really well in it, and a lot better than some of my art subjects.

Chris: 00:26:40

So I just followed that and ended up changing my major.

Chris: 00:26:45

And by the time I finished dancing I had, I think I had one more semester

Chris: 00:26:51

of uni to finish my bachelor degree.

Chris: 00:26:53

So I knew that that was what I was gonna do on retirement.

Chris: 00:26:56

And in that sense, that made the step a bit easier because I had this very

Chris: 00:27:02

structured, path ahead of me to, to finish uni and got a part-time job

Chris: 00:27:06

and, and just sort of leaned into that

Ross: 00:27:09

And when you started to look at your ballet career of in the rear view mirror

Chris: 00:27:16

Yeah.

Ross: 00:27:16

with this new knowledge and insights from psychology, is there, is

Ross: 00:27:20

there anything that stood out for you?

Chris: 00:27:22

Yeah, so studying perfectionism at one point in my degree was

Chris: 00:27:28

really interesting and really resonated, particularly, um, this

Chris: 00:27:32

model that was developed by Hewitt and Flett, that's sort of the

Chris: 00:27:36

multidimensional model of perfectionism.

Chris: 00:27:39

And that, that really rang true and I think it's interesting looking back now

Chris: 00:27:43

at the ballet environment where that, that model sort of breaks perfectionism

Chris: 00:27:48

up into self, other, and social.

Chris: 00:27:51

Uh, where it's, you know, you're, you're wanting to be perfect for

Chris: 00:27:54

yourself, and then wanting others to be perfect for you, and then feeling

Chris: 00:27:59

pressure socially to be perfect.

Chris: 00:28:02

And I think being able to sort of kind of just extrapolate those

Chris: 00:28:07

pieces a little bit and see it, it helps you see it a bit more clearly.

Chris: 00:28:11

And I, I do reflect back on times when I was being incredibly hard on myself.

Chris: 00:28:16

I was-- had really high expectations of the people that were coaching me

Chris: 00:28:20

because I wanted to do well, and then also feeling this kind of, you know,

Chris: 00:28:25

the cu- the broader sort of cultural, uh, I don't know if I… I mean, I guess

Chris: 00:28:29

it is pressure, like to, to attain this sort of level of, excellence in ballet.

Chris: 00:28:35

I feel like that would be very common for a lot of people and

Chris: 00:28:37

it's a genuine challenge, again, because of that subjectivity of art.

Chris: 00:28:41

So you've got people experiencing these sort of perfectionist tendencies and

Chris: 00:28:45

then there's the subjectivity as well, so everyone's got a different version

Chris: 00:28:49

of what that sort of excellence is.

Chris: 00:28:52

So it was really interesting to reflect on that and, and still in,

Chris: 00:28:56

in my work now with other people too, especially in high-performing fields

Ross: 00:29:02

what is this new emerging chapter like at the moment?

Chris: 00:29:08

Yeah, so it's b- it's a bit of a mixed bag, but I, I did my

Chris: 00:29:12

research year in psychology and I also did a coaching certification.

Chris: 00:29:17

So I'm working in a coaching capacity one-to-one with people.

Chris: 00:29:22

I also do, psychometric delivery of a, tool called Spotlight that was

Chris: 00:29:26

developed by this great team in the UK it's actually being, it's being used by

Chris: 00:29:31

a lot of really interesting groups now and it's all about sort of improving

Chris: 00:29:35

individual and team performance.

Chris: 00:29:37

A lot of the Premier League teams are using it at the moment, so that's, that's

Chris: 00:29:40

been really exciting and I, I still think for me it's such a great model and, and

Chris: 00:29:45

way of understanding mindset and behavior that synthesizes so many interesting

Chris: 00:29:50

aspects of, um, of psychological research.

Chris: 00:29:55

and I'm also working part-time for Dancers' Career Development in the

Chris: 00:29:58

UK, which is a great charity, that helps dancers, both in companies

Chris: 00:30:03

and freelance, with all things to do with their ongoing personal

Chris: 00:30:08

development, education and transition, out of dance for when they're ready.

Ross: 00:30:14

like there's a lovely portfolio developing here

Chris: 00:30:18

Yeah, yeah.

Chris: 00:30:19

It's been a process to get there.

Chris: 00:30:21

I'm really enjoying the multifaceted nature of it, and yeah, it's just

Chris: 00:30:26

wonderful to feel like I can put my experience to work and be of service

Chris: 00:30:32

to other people, in a world that, you know, has given me so much.

Chris: 00:30:36

So I'm, yeah, It's a lovely full circle moment for me

Ross: 00:30:39

Chris, I'd like to ask you for your song choice.

Ross: 00:30:41

This would announce your arrival in a room, and it's not forever.

Ross: 00:30:44

It's for the next maybe two or three months.

Ross: 00:30:48

Can you tell me what your song choice is and, and why you chose it?

Chris: 00:30:52

Yeah, so this was a tough question, but I think, uh, for

Chris: 00:30:56

more recently, the song I've chosen is Aperture by Harry Styles.

Chris: 00:31:02

And I am a relatively new fan, having had the chance to see him live in London.

Chris: 00:31:09

We went mostly to see Shania, who was his supporting act, and she was amazing,

Chris: 00:31:13

predictably, but Harry was a, um, he's, he's the real deal, and the, the song

Chris: 00:31:18

is really fun, and it's a great message.

Chris: 00:31:20

So I'm gonna go with that for now.

Ross: 00:31:22

So, so Chris, do you have a, a takeaway for the P supers to reflect on?

Chris: 00:31:28

Yeah, so something I've been thinking about a lot lately is the

Chris: 00:31:32

concepts of practice and performance, and I think it's worth a conversation Thinking

Chris: 00:31:37

about practice as not just a preparation to get from A to B. as a dancer, you

Chris: 00:31:44

show up every day to the barre to do your ballet class, and the context is

Chris: 00:31:51

always shifting, internal and external.

Chris: 00:31:53

So your body might be aching in a different place than it was yesterday.

Chris: 00:31:57

Your thoughts and feelings, you know, one day you're super motivated,

Chris: 00:32:01

the next day you might be exhausted and just not feeling like it.

Chris: 00:32:04

And then, you know, your schedule, the demands externally always shifting.

Chris: 00:32:10

But there was just this daily negotiation with yourself as

Chris: 00:32:14

you engage in this practice, and a commitment to engage in it.

Chris: 00:32:18

And that that in itself makes the practice a daily process of

Chris: 00:32:23

transformation, and that over time, that is transforming who you are as a

Chris: 00:32:29

person, as an artist, as a worker And then I think the link to performance is

Chris: 00:32:35

that high performance can sort of sound like this big sort of grandiose term,

Chris: 00:32:40

and it does get thrown around a lot.

Chris: 00:32:42

But I think at its core, to me, high performance is that commitment daily

Chris: 00:32:50

to that practice or in whatever it is, and making steps towards the way

Chris: 00:32:57

you wanna show up to the challenge

Chris: 00:33:00

I think the follow on to that thought is that as a dancer or an athlete,

Chris: 00:33:05

you know, you have the benefit of an, of an environment and a schedule

Chris: 00:33:09

that sets you up to do that practice.

Chris: 00:33:12

And I think that I'm happy that there's more conversations around this now in

Chris: 00:33:17

society and in organizations, and I think there's so much potential there for us all

Chris: 00:33:23

to find ways of having a daily practice that helps ground us and feel clear in

Chris: 00:33:29

our direction and that's something I've had to find for myself now out of ballet.

Chris: 00:33:34

It's, it's been a real reckoning for me and a process and, and ongoing.

Chris: 00:33:38

it's definitely not as easy as it was when it was all set out for me in my schedule.

Chris: 00:33:42

I have to do it myself now.

Chris: 00:33:44

So I really, I think about, you know, freelance artists and people

Chris: 00:33:48

who are working on their own.

Chris: 00:33:49

It's such a incredible testament to their discipline and that

Chris: 00:33:54

commitment that we talked about.

Chris: 00:33:55

And I think that is inspiring to me in how I, how I wanna frame

Chris: 00:34:00

practice and performance for myself now beyond the stage.

Chris: 00:34:04

Is

Ross: 00:34:04

thanks so much for that takeaway and your willingness to

Ross: 00:34:07

join me and speak about your career in such an open and powerful way.

Ross: 00:34:11

I really appreciate it

Chris: 00:34:13

Thanks, Ross.

Chris: 00:34:14

I really appreciate the opportunity, and it was great to have this conversation

Ross: 00:34:24

Hey supers, that's it.

Ross: 00:34:25

My conversation with Chris Rogers Wilson in the bag.

Ross: 00:34:29

Two things struck me most.

Ross: 00:34:31

First, the importance of connection in the workplace, particularly when we're dealing

Ross: 00:34:36

with human challenges such as grief.

Ross: 00:34:39

And second, Chris's description of the relationship between practice

Ross: 00:34:42

and performance and those small repeated choices we make along

Ross: 00:34:47

the way You can find People Soup wherever you listen to podcasts.

Ross: 00:34:51

And if this episode made you think, please share it with

Ross: 00:34:53

someone who might find it useful.

Ross: 00:34:56

As ever, thanks for listening and thanks for sharing People Soup with others.

Ross: 00:35:00

You're helping us bring real conversations about work, leadership,

Ross: 00:35:04

and being human to more people.

Ross: 00:35:06

Until next time, look after yourselves, Peace Soupers, and bye for now.